The Darkside Of Music: The Murder Of Jam Master Jay

Merch Talk And Mug Redesign

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to the dark side of music. We have Danny here with us. Hello, Danny. How are you, sir? I am I told you I'm I'm just tired. I'm just tired. My shirt came.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

I love it. I was gonna tell you that when we were just talking a second ago because I could say I could see the tippy top of it. I was like, I love the shirt. By the way, I have I have to tell you, my dad loves the shirt too.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Oh, hell yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Because I presented it to him.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yeah, I didn't get a dark side shirt yet, but I did get these shirts for me, my wife, and Chris. That's awesome. And it came, it was two days late getting here, but it came, it got washed, it fits great, and they're great shirts, man. Like I truly like this is an awesome shirt.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

That I mean, yeah, I love it. They're nice and comfortable. You're right. Like, uh, I wasn't gonna be that guy from the band and wear my own, but right have mine. So I do really like it, and like I said, my dad really likes it. I think it's an awesome design. Like, I I just love it. Yeah, hell yeah, dude. What we really need for the dark side is those. I'm telling you, we need we need mugs that we can just drink while we're talking and doing a cake.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So I'm I'm redesigning them, they're gonna be up. So instead of how they are right now, so if you go to our merch page right now, it's just the the blank cup that has the logo on the front side of it. Instead, the logo is gonna be moved to the side, and then there's gonna be caution tape wrapping around the mug with our names on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that a lot. Yeah, so yeah, it'll be up soon. I I have to I've been steck sketching out like how I want the the caution tape to be, and then I have a designer that's gonna like finalize it for me, but yeah, it's gonna look sick, man. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I can't wait. Yeah, as soon as as soon as those are up, we're definitely we each have to get them, and yeah, we just have them for cases, and it's free advertisement.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

That's right, that's right. But if you're listening, go check out the page. We got all sorts of merch over there.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

There's some really cool stuff there today, though.

Jam Master J Case Setup

SPEAKER_00 2:08

We are going over the murder of Jam Master J from the band Run DMC. Run DMC, of course, being one of the grandfathers of I don't know, rap, hip-hop, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I'd say hip hop, more so than rap. Definitely hip-hop.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Probably rap a little bit, but more hip-hop. And kind of like the the pioneers of introducing like a mixture of rap and rock, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I feel like yeah, it it we we don't get a lot of, you know, kind of like the the late 90s, early 2000s, like what do we even call that? The the it's a new wave, new metal, like where they would have rap over top of rock and and stuff like that. Yeah, hell Lincoln Park. I feel like we we might not get without the collab that that run DMC did with Aerosmith.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, run DMC and Aerosmith, absolutely. Or like a lot of like corn's type of stuff is for sure influence.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

That was late 90s, early 2000s. That's that's what I was trying to think of. Like, was like I couldn't think of corn immediately, but I was like, corn, maybe a little bit of Limp Biscuit, like you know, but definitely like Lincoln Park and corn and and stuff like that for sure. You can see the the major influences right there. Absolutely.

Listener Feedback And Expert Tease

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Before we dive into this, though, I wanted to tell you we got a lot of feedback on the Dimebag Daryl case. Did we? Yeah, yeah. People loved that case. Oh, I thought you were gonna.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

I I got scared for a second. I thought you were gonna be like, they fucking hated it. We got everything wrong.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

No, they loved it. There were a lot of Dimebag supporters out there thanking us for keeping his legacy alive. The only the only like slightly negative feedback that we got was there was one person that commented something along the lines of like, this concept is interesting, but you guys say a lot of I am not an expert, but blank. And she said that uh we should look into possibly bringing in an expert in the field of true crime, which we are. I'm working on it. Lawyers are very busy people, apparently. Yeah, yeah, so but we are going to have somebody coming in from Los Angeles who is a music lawyer and has studied music, law, and litigated for different artists in LA for the last 35 years.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Oh, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So that's gonna be coming up, just waiting to get his schedule aligned to have him on the show.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

That's what we call a tease.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

That's right, that's right. But but so I wasn't I wasn't super familiar with this case at all.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, me neither. I I I started reading this and I was like, I'm alive during this, but it's like one of those things where it's like completely like I didn't even realize this happened, like right.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Well, and this is our first ever cold case. This has no definitive ending, so this is an open uh investigation, and there have been some major updates recently. So let's dive in here. So the first thing that we're gonna go over is the overview of the case itself, and then we will dive into who Jam Master J was and dive into the crime and move on from there to the band's legacy and a bunch of different uh topics. But let me read over this case overview real quick.

The Murder In Queens

SPEAKER_00 5:44

On October 30th, 2002, Jason Mitzel, better known as Jam Master J from Run DMC, was sitting inside of his recording studio in Queens, New York. At approximately 7 30 p.m., two armed men entered the studio. Within moments, Jam Master J had been shot in the back of the head at close range. Another man inside of the studio was shot in the leg. The killers escaped. There were multiple people around the studio, yet for nearly two decades nobody was convicted of the murder. Rumors circulated throughout the hip-hop community, and investigators followed countless leads. More than sixty thousand dollars in reward money was offered, but the case still remains unsolved. Then nearly eighteen years later, federal prosecutors announced the arrest and their theories completely changed the story surrounding Jam Master J's death. According to the prosecutors, he wasn't primarily it wasn't primarily about a Rappie Fame or Ron DMC, it was about cocaine. And the people accused of killing Jam Master J weren't strangers, they were people from his own circle.

Drugs, Taboo, And Changing Culture

SPEAKER_00 7:03

So I feel like the the stereotype of drugs within the music industry is very much proven at this point.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Well, yeah, I I mean I feel it's weird because I feel like there's still drugs in the music industry and stuff like that, but it's like drugs aren't as serious if that if if it makes sense. Like if that if that makes any sense, because I I mean marijuana's legal most places, so no one's getting in weird fights or or any kind of stick-ups through that anymore. And then it's like yeah, I guess there's there's much harder drugs and stuff that can still like you know have these kinds of incidences, but like nowhere near as much as like I feel like the 70s and 80s. I mean, I realize yeah, 2000, but like, yeah, I think a lot, I mean, this is over 20 years ago at this point. I feel like in that 20 years, because things have become less like uh almost taboo is is kind of like what I what I'm more searching for, like as the as as terms for it with drugs. It's not like you're getting bricks of cocaine and and you know, keeping like hiding them at your mansion or something like that. It's just like I'll get some I'll get some weed from the dispensary, and then if somebody else needs cocaine, we'll get whatever, you know. We're not we don't need a brick of it, like I feel like yeah, yeah. But I could be way off because maybe I'm just like not big enough. Like maybe I don't know yet. But I don't know. I just I feel like as the years have gone on, as the decades have gone on, I feel like drugs are less taboo. I want to think that maybe drugs are are becoming less and less of a a major thing in in in Hollywood, but like you still Hollywood and and in music and in that in general. I'm like kind of lumping them the the entertainment industry altogether, type of thing. But like I know you have the outliers, people that are there are still you know major celebrities and major musical artists that are that are ODing or or having like horrible accidents like involving drugs and stuff like that. But I feel like now they're becoming the more of the outlier, less of the the norm type of thing. Whereas the further you go back, I feel like you're getting like where that was kind of more of the norm. It was like almost like you were hearing about there's tons of cases that we've already talked about, and there's plenty more that we can that always have some sort of drug bearing in them, type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So, yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right. Drugs between being less taboo and honestly less romanticized, too, and like it it's becoming this idea of like it's it's no longer cool, you know what I mean? People understand the the destructive nature, I think, more than in the 70s. So people are kind of looking down on it as like not being the cool thing to do. Now, granted, I'm sure that cocaine is still a major problem. I I couldn't imagine it not being, but like, yeah, man, I just I think that we're in a place right now where you are seeing a bit of a drop off from that. The the only downside, if you if you have to find a downside, is I feel like more artists are now dying of suicides. Because I don't I don't know. I don't want to say that there is a correlation, but well, I mean, cocaine's an upper, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Like what right? Like I mean, they're not wanting to be downer, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, they're not chasing the the depression with substance abuse. So I again this isn't pro-drug campaign. I'm just saying that like it's an interesting, interesting correlation that drug deaths are reducing and suicide deaths are increasing. Well, you know what's even industry.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

What's even crazier, even outside of the music and entertainment industry, the the younger and young younger generations are drinking less and less alcohol, too. I saw that study. Yeah, I saw that study. So I I don't know if it's just you know, you know how like things like things always come back around. Like maybe it's just we're we're hitting the opposite end of the loop and then it's gonna come back around, type of thing. I I don't know. I'm not predicting I I would I I I'm not hoping for that. I'm just saying, like it's like we're on that downswing of like, I mean, everything's so expensive too. So it's like maybe like maybe that's really the reason is like why are you gonna go out and spend 180 bucks on like eight drinks versus you know having a couple drinks at home and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Oh, or or is it that social media is taking away because the technically they both do the same thing to your brain?

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So maybe it's just that like scrolling on TikTok is how the younger generation is having a few drinks, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I don't want this is starting to make me feel old. I don't want to this podcast was not supposed to make me feel old. It's not I I have a cousin who's Gen Z and he's like literally like three years younger than me, and he still gets hits me with like like uh well my generation does I'm like you son of a bitch. Um but anyway, yeah, I I I think it's just kind of I really do feel like it's one of those things. Like, I don't know how how like when you were growing up, like with when I was growing up, my dad didn't want to make like alcohol, not drugs, but didn't want to make alcohol taboo. So like he was like, you know, if you want to try a beer, I'll let you try a beer, but you're not going anywhere. Like, I'll let you try one at home. And it wasn't like I'm eight and he lets me try a beer or something. It was like I was 16 and he was like, if you want to or 15, 16, he was like, You want to try a beer? You can try a beer. I hated the taste of beer, but I like mixed drinks, and and but like it took it immediately took off, like took the taboo away from it immediately. So I was just like, why am I gonna sneak alcohol? I could I can have a drink. I hate the taste of beer. Why am I gonna do this? So I wonder if, like I was saying, where kind of the taboo taboo is completely gone when it comes to marijuana. Like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was I gotta say this, I gotta say one thing, and I apologize. It was so weird being in Virginia where it was like there weren't just dispensaries on every corner because up here and especially in New York City, it's literally every corner. Right here, it's not every corner yet, but it's it's like you know, I could have three places that I that would deliver to me within the hour, right? Right type of thing. And they're like legit businesses. It's not like I got a guy that that'll come by at some point, they're legit businesses all through like registered and everything like that. So it was so weird going down in Virginia where it was like all of these are medical, so nothing you can't go to anything. And we're like, okay, this is weird.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Well, and they still are throwing people in jail around here for weed. It is it is crazy though that you could probably just like door dash weed, you could probably just be like here, yeah, you know that's crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

100%, it's a $50 minimum. That's it. That is it. I could have it, I could, I could have it here before the podcast was over.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And mind you, my dad did three years in a federal penitentiary for weed.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, yeah. So what's really funny is when it not when it was first, but like when it was like more common, I my dad, you know, came up and visited and I was like, hey, I'm I'm running really low. Because I I I mean, I don't smoke because of my voice and stuff like that, but I do take you know some some edibles, especially stuff to help me, you know, my brain goes a mile a minute. So like at in the evening, I like to take something that helps me, you know, instead of drinking, I just take like something that takes the edge off and kind of just helps me slowly start relaxing for the rest of the evening. And I was like, I'm running low. Can we take a take a spin to the dispensary? And that was probably three years ago, and he was afraid to walk in. Totally legit business. Yeah, nothing was gonna happen. He's like, Well, what if they take a picture of me and put it in the paper? I was like, well, because you said it's a new place. What if they're like, you know, trying to do advertisements for it? And I was like, That's that's not you're gonna walk into a liquor store in in two hours. Like, you think they're gonna you afraid they're gonna take a picture of you at a liquor store? But now he's fine with it. Like, now if if if something happened, like when my foot really, really hurt, he was like, Well, are you are you okay on that? Do you need me to get like literally would have just walked right in? Because now it's like taboo's like even more so, like three years into it, and it's like even by him now, they have like places that would deliver to his house if he if he needed something. That's wild, yeah. And I gotta say this New York City, you can just walk around and smoke it like a cigarette. Like, I right, right. You walk through Times Square, and that is all you smell. That is all you smell. That's crazy, dude. It is so different than Virginia right now, and it's it's funny because like so. We were I think three or four years behind California, and you're like two or three years behind us, so it's like yeah, you can see what it's like, like the the chain that it happens, it'll all it all come back down. So right, yeah, it's it's interesting. But I going back to what we were originally talking about, yeah, yeah. Sorry, it's I'm rambling. I apologize. I'm very excitable though. Um, but what I what I was saying is I think maybe when you take the the taboo away from things now, it it really does kind of take the the effect of it being like this this cool like hidden thing to do, and and you know, you know what I mean. So like I think maybe that's why we're getting less and less of you know alcohol, but less like I'm sure drug use is still up, but now it's legal drug use. But like maybe that's why we're not hearing as many instances because either A, you know, it's just a footnote in something, or B, it's not that's not the direct reason for it. So it's just like we're just not they're not putting everything that has any kind of touch of drug in it in that kind of category anymore. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah.

Who Jam Master J Was

SPEAKER_00 17:52

So let's go over exactly who Jammaster J was. Uh his real name was Jason William Mitzel. He was born January 21st, 1965. He died October 30th, 2002, at the age of 37. He was born, or his hometown was in Queens, New York, and his group was Run DMC. He was the DJ for Run DMC. J Master J formed Run DMC along Joseph Run Simmons and Daryl DMC McDaniels. Run DMC became one of the most important groups in hip hop history. Now, Run DMC is a huge, huge band. I I feel like again, we kind of talked about at the beginning, but like I don't know anyone who doesn't know the name Run DMC at this point. Maybe like the super younger generations might not, but anyone in their early 20s to the 80s, 90s, like everybody knows Run DMC. So just a quick brief overview of them. During the 80s, hip-hop was still fighting to become recognized in the mainstream media. Run DMC helped change that. They stripped down sound, Adidas clothing, and gold chains and aggressive delivery became iconic. Major songs included I Like That, It's Tricky, King of Rock, Walk This Way, My Adidas, and Peter Piper. That list is incredible. I I I've never heard Peter Piper or Maya Adidas, but everything else.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

You never heard my Adidas?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I haven't. I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Really?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Oh but every song on this one.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

I know every other one.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah. I I I love every song on this list. I I've never heard, and and I'm not like have the entire catalog of Run DMC or anything like that, but like every song I've ever heard from Run DMC, I've liked. Like I might not remember it by by the title of the song, but I if if somebody put it on and I've heard it before, I'll go, oh yeah, I've definitely heard this song before. Because every everything in their catalog is good. These are definite, this is a hit list, like right here. These are all of the hits for sure, but they have so many really good songs. Just in their catalog alone.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

I mean, Tricky is one of those songs that like everybody knows. But for me, anytime I'm cleaning, I use like a spray cleaner. And if I go to spray it, I spray it in like the the timing of the beginning of Tricky, and then I sing it in my kitchen every time, every time without fail. Because it just lines up so perfectly. You can't not. So then I find things to spray and I spray it to the beat of Tricky. It's a great time. They also did a collaboration with Aerosmith, like we talked about. Walk This Way, helped introduce hip-hop into the mainstream audience. Run DMC became one of the first rap groups to achieve major crossover success. They appeared on MTV, they received major record certifications, they toured internationally, and they became cultural icons. Jam Master J was the musical backbone of the group, which again, I I knew of this story, but never realized how important Jam Master J was to the band. Like I only knew Run and DMC. Like they they were the the faces. It's like the the band tag team. Like I only know the the main guy of tag team. Like it's it's a very similar situation, but a much darker ending, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, I mean the DJ has to keep everything together because you got yeah, you do have the two front men, but like DJ's the one who's yeah, right making the it's like the the D the DJ for the BC Boys.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

He goes and does his own thing now because everyone else has passed away, but like you never realize that, like, oh, that's he's the guy, you know what I mean? He's the one making the melodies in the The beats and everything. So Jam Master J's public image. One element of this became particularly controversial after prosecutors revealed their theory. Run DMC had maintained an anti-drug public image. The group participated in anti-drug campaigns and promoted messages encouraging young people to avoid drugs and violence. That made the allegations revealed after Jay's death particularly shocking. The federal prosecutors would eventually claim that Jason Mitzel had become involved in cocaine trafficking outside of his music career. His family disputed those claims and said that he was involved in drugs. This became one of the most controversial elements of the murder investigation. So now we dive into a little more of the the darker side of things. And yeah, I I forgot that like during the 80s, they were a big proponent of like the Dare campaign and everything else. Like, huh? That was that was a big part of the the push to inner city schools specifically to keep children off of drugs. By the late 1990s and early 2000s, Run DMC was no longer generating the enormous commercial success that they had in the 80s. Jmaster Jay remained active in music. He opened a recording studio known as 24-7 Studio. It was located on Merrick Boulevard in Queens, New York. Jay used the studio to work with younger artists and musicians. He became known for mentoring upcoming talent. Among the artists connected to Jay's mentorship was a young 50 Cent. Damn. Jay remained respected throughout the Queen's hip hop community, but according to Federal Prosecutors, another part of his life existed outside of the recording studio. Yeah, could you imagine uh uh helping helping the success of 50 Cent?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah. I wonder who else. Like, I mean, I guess 50 Cent is probably the most notable, but I wonder I wonder who else went like into his studio or got mentored or or had like a small connection. Would have been pretty cool to kind of get that list.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

That that would have been like you and I running into a young gravy and like giving him advice, you know, let's or like a Benson Boone, you know. That's wild, dude. Could you imagine that'd be crazy? Crazy.

The Alleged Cocaine Operation

SPEAKER_00 24:34

The alleged drug operation, federal prosecutors alleged that during the 1990s and early 2000s, Jason Mitzel became involved in arranging cocaine transactions. According to the prosecutors, these were no small street level deals. The transactions allegedly involved kilogram quantities of cocaine. One particular deal would eventually become central to the government's theory on his murder.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Dang. So we are talking about blocks of cocaine. Like that just to get it right, this is what we're talking about. Like, and so that's I guess this is where the family's like he wasn't doing involved with blocks of cocaine. He was just okay with drugs. Like, they that's I guess that's what you're like.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I the last section said, like, was like I think they were saying completely yeah, I think they're saying like he wasn't a dealer, he was a user, yeah. Like, but meanwhile, this is the type of guy where I feel like they like knock on the walls in his house and like cocaine just comes pouring out, you know what I mean? Like, dang that that's that level of of cocaine in one deal. Yeah, yeah, holy shit. So that dives us into this this case here. The 10 kilogram cocaine deal. According to federal prosecutors, in August of 2002, Jam Master J obtained approximately 10 kilos of cocaine on consignment from a supplier. Wait, hold on. Drug drug suppliers are doing consignment deals? That's crazy, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Look, if you're in run DMC, I guess maybe they'll they'll do consignment deals.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

In my personal job, they won't let me sell products on consignment to my customers, but drug dealers are that's wild. Look, they're revolutionary. Let me give you all of this cocaine, and we're just going to collect payment later. That's crazy. As you use it, as you use it, we'll collect payment. Yeah. Could you imagine being the guy that has to go check in on the usage? He's like, who has like a notebook and he's like counting the okay, there's one bundle, there's a second one. That one's a little empty.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Well, when they come in bricks, I think it's pretty easy to stop by and be like, okay, well, you had 10 last time and you have seven now. Give us the money for three.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Like, I I know they're degenerates, but I I want to live in a world where they dress in polos and khakis like I do and have to go out and count individually. They have like great customer service.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

You don't know. Maybe that's how they they were under the radar. Maybe they were just running around like dude.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

I hope so. That's the world I want to live in.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Polos and khakis, and it it and they had like a legit like a name tag into it. Yeah, like a name stitch into it and like a company logo, and it has nothing to do with what they're actually doing.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

It's just a little cartoon kilo of cocaine, like running around.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Synthos made their uniforms. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Oh man, that's hilarious. Just just like those uh those solar salespeople for cocaine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

They got a little clipboard and a list, and they uh like do you go to your neighborhood?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go through your neighborhood, they walk around, you they knock on the door, you always tell them you're not interested. Yeah, they ask for recommendations. It's a good system. The cocaine was reportedly going to be distributed in Maryland. Hey, that's not far. The shipment would have been worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Several people were allegedly involved, among them Ronald Washington, Carl Jordan Jr. Washington was an old acquaintance of acquaintance of Jay's, and Jordan was Jay's godson. According to prosecutors, something happened that changed the deal. A dispute developed involving people connected to the Maryland distribution operation. As a result, Washington and Jordan were allegedly removed from the transaction. They were going to lose their share of the money. Prosecutors claimed that this became the motive for the murder. Interesting. Yeah, that's why you shouldn't involve family and business, man. Right there.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Family or for or friends. Because what uh Washington wasn't family.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Close, close friends and family. You should never involve them in business.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Always hire outside workers.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, so especially not drug business. Because I feel like that's when you eat whenever you hear about like the the drug like bust or something, it came from somebody being pissed off and rolling over on their ass, like and and stuff like that. Every time you you hear about like deaths and stuff involving drugs, it's always like something having to do with somebody got like screwed over and then they sought revenge or or something like that. Like that's how it all goes around. Not that we're trying to plan like the perfect drug drug operation or anything. I swear. I feel like this whole thing sounds real positive on the I know, and I feel like I feel like we have to run like a dare commercial before this.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Does Dare even exist anymore?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

All you have to do is be 16 or 18 now, and you can you can go to dispensaries. Like, I don't know. I didn't check on Dare.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

They might there's a big thing with Dare. I I don't fact check me on it because I don't know if it's legitimate or not, but I was told by somebody that Dare was a program by the government to put drug information in front of children so that they would buy drugs. Because secretly a lot of our economy is ran off of drug money.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Well, yeah, that this is why, like, look, I'm not gonna go do a whole bunch of hard drugs. Like, look, I like my edibles because they help me go to sleep and they help me like relax. That's about as far as I get. Maybe have a couple drinks, but that's not and they make movies great, yeah. But like other people, like they, you know, they go crazy with drugs and and stuff like that. I never really understood, like, once states because in our lifetime, they made marijuana went from you know illegal and only sold by by dealers to federalized, like in certain states. Maybe not, maybe not federalized. Does that mean like statewide? State a state regulated, regulated, state regulated, yeah, yeah. State regulated, state to state, with the beginning states when we were little, and then it kind of has slowly you know expanded to like areas on the east coast, and and you know, it's get it's getting to the point where it's it's more states than not at this point. Yeah, I think it's like 42 states out of the 50 states. Well, because yeah, and and looking at it strictly from and like I said, I'm not somebody that overly does anything. Like, I don't, you know, alcohol's been legal since you know, way before either one of us were born and and stuff like that. I still won't go out and just get shit faced because I just I feel like shit the next day. And it's like yeah, I can feel just as happy with like two or three drinks and then go home and sleep it off and feel fine the next day, type of thing. But so I'm not an in excess person in general, but what I never understood was when they saw the success of the early states that started doing that with with marijuana, why all the states shouldn't immediately just do the same thing? Because it brings it does bring in a shit ton more money because it's like yeah, the same thing as alcohol. Like some people don't like alcohol. Like, I you know, I like the the the THC selters. I actually have you know, I have some in my refrigerator right now because like they're awesome because you can drink with your friends who are drinking alcohol, and then there is no hangover whatsoever. I just get more and more tired until I fall asleep. Like that's literally the only effects of it. Somebody's gonna somebody's gonna write in and be like, they're horrible for your brain. And I apologize. Like, I like I said, I'm never in in excess. Maybe I drink two or three at a time if I'm drinking with people on my own. I'm not gonna drink more than one at a time. But that's just that's just my personality in general. I'm crazy enough as it is. You know me. But but like in in general, like I just feel like there's there's these two avenues of you know the government can be making a crap ton of money, states can make a crap ton of money because it's already been proven in the states that have made you know weed legal and and stuff like that, is you know, they make I think in when it first gets introduced into a state like new, they make more in in marijuana sales than they do in alcohol sales for like the first while type type of thing. Like that's right, right because of the big jump from when it wasn't illegal to now it is a leg, it is legal type wasn't legal to now it is legal. I wanted to say it wasn't illegal to yeah, anyway. So I I was just never I was always confused why they never did that. Dare, on the other hand, was always very weird to me. Yeah, it it like I said, never was like interested in drugs and alcohol, like you know, when I was when I was little anyway, because like the taboo was always gone. But yeah, I just never understood the Dare program. Like just in general, I was like, let's talk about drugs with little kids. Right, right. I never understood that. So like I would not be shocked if there were some weird things that that were like untold stories from the Dare, like Dare uh theories and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

So interesting, interestingly enough, the Dare program theory is something that I've heard, but my experience is the Dare program is what my got my dad arrested. I accidentally told on my dad, and yeah, and they showed up and raided our house. Holy shit, yeah. But again, this is when weed was like extremely illegal. This was the 90s, early 2000s, right? So yeah, yeah, so we're we're anti-dare here.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

This is turning into a pro-drug episode a hundred percent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

But I I mean, you know, they've done great things overseas with it, but then you you you look at places like like Oregon and you see the failure because they tried to do the Amsterdam thing where they were like, you can do anything here, any drug is legal. Oh, I had no idea about this. Yeah, Portland, Oregon. They made a whole thing about how they were just completely legalizing, specifically in Portland, any drug, and people flocked from across the country to Portland to do all sorts of horrible drugs. But now it has not only completely destroyed Portland, they have basically zombies, they have heroin zombies and fentanyl zombies that just walk the streets. It's the I think like the second most dangerous city in the world, and yeah, it's it's really, really bad. So they saw the exact opposite, they saw the horrendous failure because they they took the concept that countries like Amsterdam and others overseas have, but they didn't build the support and infrastructure to back it. So they didn't invest in clinics to help people get clean, they didn't invest in clinics for people to go and do the drugs in, right? They didn't invest in doctors and nurses, and they just let people run amok and do drugs, which is a horrible idea, just a horrible idea.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah, you need something in place for that, like yeah, same same things that like you know, we have rehab in place for alcohol and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Right, yeah, but they're now working so hard to reverse the damage that they've done, and it's very, very difficult, but they are back to like really cracking down on that problem. But there for a minute, they were I think the number one heroin state by far. Like the numbers were vastly different compared to other states. Wow, so yeah. But, anyways, Ronald Washington. Ronald Washington was not a stranger to Jam Master Jay, the two had known each other for years. Reports indicated that Jay had helped Washington financially. Washington had even reportedly stayed at Jay's home. This relationship became important during the eventual trial. Prosecutors portrayed Washington as someone who was bec who had become furious after being excluded from the cocaine deal. His defense argued essentially the opposite. Why would Washington murder someone who he regularly helped? Then you have Carl Jordan Jr. Carl Jordan Jr. was even closer to Jay's world. He was Jam Master Jay's godson. Federal prosecutors eventually alleged that Jordan was the person who actually fired the fatal shot. Jordan denied killing Jay. The government's case against him would eventually become particularly complicated. So now we dive into the exact part of his demise. These two these two characters are it's it's almost like somebody's writing a Hollywood script. Right. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 38:26

It's it's funny that his his argument was why would I murder somebody irregularly up? Because you were pissed off at him for cutting you out. Like I think that's that doesn't really work. Like maybe his argument should have been like, I didn't want to do it anymore. We cut ties on that, and I washed my hands clean. Like, say I same thing with the drug thing. I'm not trying to like say like this is the way to get out of murder or anything, but like I feel I feel like we gotta have a lot of like parentheses in this one.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Like the comments on this one are gonna be crazy.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Oh my yeah, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It it does feel like if if I was writing like a new Denzel Washington like Hollywood, like like uh what was that movie that he training day? Like if I was writing a this is the opposite, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, this is the opposite of training day because you're coming from the the drug runners side of things, not the dirty cop side of things. It's the yeah, the opposite. So yeah, this would be like what can we call it? It would be like it would it wouldn't be training day, or it could be training day in parentheses, like a a new run, or I don't know, it would have to be something that kind of copyrighted, copyrighted something that kind of ties it together, but also you know that something's gonna be different, like yeah, it would have to be something, something different.

The Shooting And Immediate Questions

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Like I'm not saying it's out it's out of the realm of possibilities to make millions of dollars in Hollywood, but right so we come to October 30th, 2002.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

J Master J was inside of his recording studio in Queens, New York. Several other people were in or around the building at approximately 7:30 p.m. Two armed men entered the studio. According to the government's eventual reconstruction, Ronald Washington pointed the firearm at one of the people inside the record or inside and ordered the person onto the floor. Carl Jordan approached Jmaster Jay, two shots were fired. One bullet struck Jay in the head, he almost died immediately. The second bullet struck another man Urell Tony Rencon in the leg, and then the attackers fled. Now the crime scheme crime scene police arrived into the studio, one of the biggest mysteries immediately became obvious. There had been witnesses, yet investigators struggled to identify the killers. People inside or connected to the studio either claimed they didn't know what happened or provided limited information. This would become one of the defining features of the investigation.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah, see, that's all kinds of sketchy.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yeah. Like, I mean unless they were just all there doing drugs. Like, what if everybody was there doing drugs together and then things got heated?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Oh, you think somebody like somebody that was there wasn't like the whole story of somebody coming in is all that's what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

I'm thinking like they were all there already, they were all doing drugs together. Things got heated, some words got said, some guns got pulled out, and then all of these other people were like, I ain't saying shit.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I mean, I guess because it's a cold case, your theory is as good as any, like, but like, I mean, that would make sense, I guess, as to why there wouldn't be really any witnesses, like, and and especially like running in and out. Like, I get we're probably talking, you know, evening to to to dusk. Yep. 7:30. Yeah, it's still light out right now. Well, I guess no, we're talking about October, so it was definitely dark. Oh, yeah, it was definitely dark. I'm I'm thinking it's August. No, I'm I'm thinking, yeah, now October, 7:30 is dark. So I guess you know, you could be like, yeah, I saw somebody running, but I have no idea their their features or anything like that. So that I guess still in the realm, but like, what about the guy that got shot in the leg? He he and he got yelled at to lay down too. Like, yeah, was that a completely person?

SPEAKER_00 42:53

No, I think I think you're right. They well, it said they ordered the person onto the floor. One of the people from inside, they ordered them onto the floor. Right. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, they did talk a little bit, so maybe that theory doesn't really hold up. I will say, I will say this though.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

110% 100% that was the target because like you don't just shoot a guy in the leg and leave him there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But shoot two shots. Like, they did so so Jmaster J is 100% the target. They got that done, and they were just like, all right, done, like, type of thing. Like, I think that the shot in the leg was either the guy arguing, and he was like, you know what, shut the fuck up, like boom, right, type of thing. Or like maybe, maybe that's maybe that was a warning. Maybe it was like, if you tell anybody who I am, the next one's going in your head, but I'm doing this just so you you know I'm serious, I'm shooting you in the leg, like type of thing. Like that sounds like a threat to me. Like You know what I mean? Like you don't say shit, I'm shooting you in the leg right now, next one's going in your head.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Like also aside from like the the being angry about the deal falling through, what did they really have the gain? Like they didn't steal anything. Like I feel like if if I was in that situation and I was in their mindset, I would have started stealing stuff, you know what I mean? Ransack his house.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Uh well, but they're not at his house, they're just at a studio.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, yeah. But like I would have taken things from the studio, but clearly they know how to get into his home, too, I would assume. So like I would have gone to his house, ransacked his house, make it look as much like robbery gone wrong, you know what I mean? As I could.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

I mean, I guess, but clearly they got they got away with it as is. Like, they I think you know, yeah, work smarter, not harder.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Like, I feel like what they that's some that's some real hatred, too, to just be like, I don't want any it because it's it's back to the money, it's all about the money in the end. So, like to to kill somebody and then just be like, I'm not gonna take their stuff either. Because it's not like he was like Joe Schmo off the street, he's Jam Master J. Like he's got money, or at least nice things.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah, maybe whoever did it wanted the least amount of draw that could come back to him. So him or her. I mean, look, it's it was it was the 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yep, women can do anything men can do, exactly, including brutally murdering James J.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Look, we're gonna go through a lot more cases. There's definitely gonna be both men and women doing things, but maybe, maybe they maybe we're thinking too simplistically, and maybe they actually thought this through and we're like, look, we could steal shit, but then it's like the more shit you have, even if it's just money, the more shit that you have, the more that can come back, type of thing. Like, so maybe they're just like maybe this really was just like a let's just leave no ties, no trails. We get in, we get out, boom, that's all we do, like type of thing. Because maybe, like I said, maybe they were they're thinking it way more into it than than either one of us are thinking, like the planned out or or anything of this. We're thinking of it like a small scale, you know, dispute, and and why wouldn't they just, you know, they've already done the worst that they could do. Why not? But maybe they really did. It was just like more less of a moment of anger, more of a premeditated, like I just want to do this, and that's that's all I want from this, and this will make make things in my mind done.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Like you know, it almost makes you wonder if there's more to it than just the the cocaine run. Yeah, like like to hold that level of anger, I get like losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars is definitely a big deal, but like to hold that level of anger, feel like there's gotta be more to it.

The Wall Of Silence

SPEAKER_00 47:13

But but let's dive into this the next section here the wall of silence. The murder occurred in a community where distraught distrust of police, distrust, distrust, yeah, of police was significant. Witnesses were reportedly afraid, some feared retaliation, others simply refused to cooperate. Investigators received large numbers of tips, reward money eventually exceeded sixty thousand dollars. Still nobody was charged in years past. I guess that might also be a big part of it. Is we're talking early 2000s, so and in Queens, New York, like that's that's not super far from Harlem, I don't think. Uh I'm not super familiar with with that area up that way.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

They're all they're I mean, all all the bureaus are are all the boroughs are you know close enough. Like you know what I mean? Like you're you're you're in the city, you're in the city. Like, I mean, I get each borough is a little bit different, and they are you know, you need to take a subway, but like at the same time, like it's all New York City.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

So and New York in general, people just disrupt distrust the police, anyways, for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I will say this, and and they they are a very commanding presence. So I a hundred percent feel very intimidated by the police. Oh, absolutely, type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

So yeah, and I feel like honestly, I feel like distrust in the police is getting worse now because of documentaries, because you you constantly see how cases get fumbled, or you know, you find stuff out about dirty cops that you didn't know, right? Or how many people at this point have we been able to find that were innocent of things that they were committed of 30, 40 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Like well, I wonder if that I mean, I think there's always gonna be a level of of of distrust and and more so of like intimidation. My police in general. Because like I've been like just in just as a the most in cons insignificant, that's the word I was looking for, insignificant example I can give. I've used to get pulled over all the time because I would be driving home from shows like late at night. I didn't have a drop to drink because I was like, you know, I you know me, I don't drink before I sing. And then if depending on where we are, if people are already starting to leave, it's like I'm not gonna hang around by myself and have some drinks at a bar. I'm gonna go home. Right. Drink at home, whatever. So I used to drive home and I would get pulled over just because it was like, you know, after midnight, and like they're trying, like they were trying to, and I would be, I would, I would be like, I don't know why I'm scared. Like there's no reason I wasn't speeding, like I haven't had an a drop of alcohol, like I should not be scared. But just something about you know, when those lights pop on behind you, yeah, you're like, what the fuck did I do? Type of thing. So it's just one of those things, and like I said, that is the lowest of like end of that spectrum and and stuff like that, but like just to, you know, you feel that in that instance. So I get it, I get the the the the thought of that, but I also wonder if like what you were saying with the documentaries and and all of these true crime, you know, podcasts and and documentaries and and shows and stuff like that. I wonder if it also mixes with we can't rely on them as as much as you know, back in like the 50s, 60s, stuff of that, where they were like the authority, and we didn't have the ability to look stuff up on our own, to kind of you know go through a case on our own, like type of thing. Right, right, right. The average person didn't, like, so you kind of had to take their word for it. Like, whether you liked it or not, you kind of had to take their word for it. And now it's more of like a okay, well, I don't like your answer, so I'm gonna figure this out. Yeah, so yeah, that is true. It's a little bit of that that you know scared is the worst word I could say of it, but that that that intimid the intimidating feeling of police in general, mixed with a well, if I can't a hundred percent rely on on this answer because I don't feel right about it, I'm gonna look it up myself and and and stuff like that. And right look, there are some amazing police officers out there. There's some amazing people in you know, law enforcement and the military in general, like in everything. But there are also some not so in any job. There's some people that are not so great in in the same field, like you know, even in radio and and stuff like that. I've worked with plenty of people that are not so great. But but just in general, I I feel like maybe that's kind of what and this was like early 2000s, the internet, you know, wasn't anywhere near what it is now, but it still was like we were still able to connect and and and talk then, type type of thing. And so, like, yeah, I I think maybe that was the beginning of kind of like let's look stuff up on our own, and you know, right. So it was like we had these kind of two different thoughts that would also, you know, make you not always want to like deal with the police as often.

Early Theories And What Fits

SPEAKER_00 52:44

So let's uh let's dive into some of the early theories here. Because Jam Master J was a famous hip-hop figure, theories immediately started to spread. Possible motives discussed publicly included a robbery, music industry disputes, personal grudges, rap-related conflicts, connections to other hip-hop murders because you had like some notorious BIG and Tupac were a couple years before. Like so drug trafficking.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

I just feel like you know, when you get into that realm, like the the the hits on other rappers and and other hip-hop artists and stuff like that. I feel like run DMC just doesn't fit into that. Agreed, agreed, yeah. Because like you really had you had such a different feel of and and look, we don't know them personally. Maybe like the whole you know, anti-drug, anti-viol, maybe that was all just you know, we're we're getting paid for that. We don't know that, like type of thing. So maybe in our personal lives, they're completely polar opposite people, and maybe they do fit into you know the same realm of categories with Biggie and Tupac and Puff Daddy at that point. What was it? I think it was P Daddy, Puff Daddy, yeah, yeah, P. Daddy. Yeah, yeah. Well, like that was all you know, that was all violence and and drug related and and hits and and stuff like that, all going into the music industry, and and and you would make a rap about it. Like, you know what I mean? So maybe they were like that and like behind the scenes, but but we don't we we'll never know.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Well, uh and my thing is like if you're if if you if this is a police officer's theory, honestly, to me, that's just straight up racial profiling at that point because like they're just they're not even relatively in the same ballpark, like right comparing Tupac and Biggie, the only connection that you have is another rap artist was murdered. Like, there's no connection to those three, right? Other other than the hip-hop, like yeah, yeah, I don't know, man. That one's that one's weird.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah, um, and I mean, I feel like we can check off robbery too. Like, we can mark that off.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

I I agree. I feel like that did not hold water when I was thinking about it. Like, yeah, immediately that that story falls apart. It's pretty clear that it's not a music industry thing, so you cross that off pretty quick. Yeah. So we really definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

I personal grudge, drug related, or drug related.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Like those two, I think, are the the and and honestly, I feel like the case is both of those things. It's a drug-related personal grudge.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think no matter what, like whether it was drug related or not, it's personal grudge because the level of which, like we said, nothing. If you're not the this was premeditated, this was planned out. This is all they wanted to do because they didn't take anything. So, like, it's got no matter what, it's personal, like no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

So, plus you got the the close range to the head, like that's another, like, yeah, that's mafia style shit, man. Yeah.

2020 Charges And New Narrative

SPEAKER_00 56:03

So the case does go cold. Years passed with that without an arrest. The murder became one of hip hop's most famous unsolved crimes. Jmaster J's killing joined the murders of Tupac and Torious BIG as examples of famous rap murders that the authorities seemed to be unable to solve. But investigators continued working, federal authorities eventually heavily and became heavily involved, new witnesses were interviewed, evidence was re-examined, additional ballistics testing was conducted, slowly the case began moving again. In August 2020, almost 18 years after the murder, federal prosecutors announced charges against Ronald Washington and Carl Jordan Jr. Prosecutors alleged that the murder was a retaliation for the excluded for being excluded from the cocaine transaction. The announcement shocked fans for almost two decades. The public had heard numerous theories. Now the government claimed it knew exactly what happened. The government's theory is that Jammaster Jay arranged a cocaine deal. Washington and Jordan were expected to participate. A dispute caused Jay to remove them from the transaction, and Washington and Jordan became angry about losing their share. They decided to kill him, and they entered Jay's studio on October 30th, 2002. Washington controlled the room, and Jordan approached Jay, and Jordan fired the fatal shot.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Damn.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Now it gets a little tricky.

The Third Man And Fire Escape

SPEAKER_00 57:42

A third man enters the case. It's tricky. Pun intended. Years after Washington and Jordan were arrested, prosecutors charged another man, Jay Bryant. Bryant became important because investigators conducted or connected to him physic physical evidence from the crime scene. DNA linked Bryant to a hat found inside the studio. Prosecutors eventually alleged that Bryant played a crucial role in allowing the killers to enter the building. So now we have almost like a well-thought-out tag team situation. This is this is like an Ocean's 11 situation. They not only premeditated it, but planned out an entry point, planned out an escape. The fire escape theory, according to the government, according to the government's updated reconstruction, Jay Bryant entered the building containing the studio. Then he opened a locked fire escape door. This allowed the killers to enter without the normal entrance and potentially alerting J Master J that they were coming. Washington and Jordan then entered the studio armed. Bryant's alleged role helped explain how the killers gained access. So yeah, I mean, that's that's a pretty crucial detail to the story.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

Is this like a hat that they just gathered and sat on for 18 years? Like, I I'm so confused because like it's a it's a recording studio, like so many people probably there was so much DNA probably there. Like, you know how often I like spit comes out of my mouth when I'm sitting and doing vocal takes and stuff like that, and you know, hair comes off, like you lose a certain amount of hairs every day. Both of those are forms of DNA.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

I'm yeah, how do you jump from a hat to that conclusion? Yeah, did they just like decide that the fire escape was open? Like, I did anybody admit to coming through the fire escape? You know, I yeah, that's a crazy jump from a hat, yeah. But the 2024 trial, this is very recent.

2024 Trial Witnesses And Claims

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah, Ronald Washington and Carl Jordan Jr. went on trial in federal court in Brooklyn. The trial lasted approximately four weeks. Prosecutors presented witnesses who claimed they had information about the murder, but had remained silent for years. One of the most important witnesses was URL Tony Rincon. The guy who got shot in the leg. Rincon was the man shot in the leg during the attack. He identified Carl Jordan Jr. as the shooter. Another witness identified Washington as being inside of the studio holding a gun. The alleged confessions, prosecutors presented testimonies about statements allegedly made by the defendants after the murder. Washington's former girlfriend testified that Washington admitted involvement in Jay's killing. Another witness testified that Jordan later made an extremely disturbing statement suggesting that if Jay were still alive, he would kill him again. Damn. Defense attorneys attacked the credibility of these witnesses. They questioned why people who supposedly knew what happened waited so many years to speak, which is it's it's a valid argument, and and people make that argument all the time with all sorts of cases of all sorts of levels of brutality. I don't think anyone understands how difficult it is to come forward on things.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Like you think in your head that you know what you would do in that situation, but you just don't until you're in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:42

And everyone's different. Some people have a flight versus fight method, you know? Yeah. So I don't know. I understand it taking so long to come forward. I really do. Let's dive into this defense. Carl Jordan Jr.'s attorney argued that he was somewhere else when Jmaster Jay was murdered. Ronald Washington's defense argued that killing Jay made little sense. Washington depended on Jay financially. Jay had helped him. Why murder someone who was supporting you? Defense attorneys also attacked the government's drug deal motive. They argued that the prosecutors were trying to force scattered pieces of evidence into a story that didn't fit. And finally, the verdict.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a little bit more thought out, whether it's true or not, or whether you know the the the anger outweighed that, not thinking thinking forward, like type of thing. But like that is a little bit better. All I'm saying is it's a little bit better of a defense than the original.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

Agreed. Agreed. February 27th, 2024, two years ago. Yeah. The jury returned its verdict, Carl Jordan Jr. as guilty, and Ronald Washington as guilty. After more than 21 years, it appeared the murder of Jam Master J had finally been solved, but the case wasn't finished.

Conviction Overturned And 2026 Plea

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

In 2025, a federal judge overturned Carl Jordan's Carl Jordan Jr.'s murder conviction. The judge concluded that the prosecutors had not presented sufficient evidence connecting Jordan to the drug deal motive required for the federal murder charge. This did not necessarily mean that the judge concluded that Jordan had not shot Jamaster J. Instead, the legal problem involved whether prosecutors had sufficiently proven that specific federal theory connecting the murder to the narcotics conspiracy. Ronald Washington's conviction still remained intact. The decision created another extraordinary chapter in the case that had already been already lasted more than two decades. And then in 2026, April, this year, Jay Bryant pled guilty to a federal murder charge for his role in Jam Master Jay's killing. Bryant admitted that he had helped people involved in the murder gain access to the recording studio. According to federal prosecutors, Bryant entered the building. He opened the lock fire escape a door. This allowed the armed trap armed attackers to enter without alerting Jay. Bryant admitted that he knew a firearm would be used. His plea provided one of the clearest acknowledgements from anyone charged in connection to the murder.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

But so so did he just tell like he has to know. So like we still have Washington 100% charged. So like what is happening? What what is happening? Like, I'm so confused now.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

So so clearly this Bryant guy definitely knows who did it. And if if he if the other guy, Carl Jr. Jordan Jr., I forget, uh Carl Jordan Jr., I'm not sure. Yeah, anyways, him he gets out and you know that he's guilty, and you just admit to this deal where you're clearly gonna send spend the rest of your life in prison. Why wouldn't you just be like, yeah, and I know who did it and get his ass back in prison? Like, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Maybe it's safer for him to be not in the same place with him. I don't know. That's the only thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Or the other part could be that maybe it was somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Somebody else. So so you're saying Carl's not there at all. Carl's Jr. Carl Jr. is not there at all. Is what I mean I'm saying he's because what we're saying is in 2024 they're 100% sure Washington was there. Right. And in 2025, they're 100% sure this Jay guy, Jay Bryant, was the third man. And the two attackers, which no one has said it wasn't two people. Everyone has agreed that it's two people. That that he so there's there's only there's only two theories, then it's either A all Jay did was unlock the fire escape, knew it was gonna happen, and was probably one of the people that was laying on the floor when this whole thing went went down, and it was Washington and some other person, or B Jay is not not saying it, but alluding to he unlocked the fire escape, Washington came in, and it was just him and Washington.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

That I mean that also could be. That also could be. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

So like if Carl Jordan Jr. has nothing to do with it, like he's he's not I mean, and and what they what they're saying is it's not that they're saying he had nothing to do with it, they're saying that there's not enough evidence as of now to convict him that he had enough to do like doing with it, type of thing. Right. But if we follow that premise along and Jay is a hundred percent saying he was there and he had involvement, that's one person. Yep, and if and if they're obviously Washington's not getting didn't get out at the same time that Carl Jr. got out, yeah. So that has to be though, that's two people. So I mean, he's not Jay Bryant isn't saying it, but at the same time, he's not not saying it that yeah, he's just the other person. Not only did he let Washington get get in through the fire escape, but he was just he was just the other guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

And this is happening right now. I know that's we're gonna have to follow this case.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

We're definitely doing a follow-up, yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

This is going to be a follow-up. I mean, all signs to me are pointing to Carl got off on a technicality. I I think that he absolutely did it, and that that's the crazy thing though.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Like, until we hear that from somebody else that was in the room, right? And and I I I get it. I'm just I'm sitting here now. I'm I'm just I'm so like I don't know. I I don't because like what is what is Jay to this whole situation? Did he really just let late leave a door unlocked? And he felt like that guilty that 18 years later he had to tell people, yeah, I left this, I left the door open.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:33

Like all also, he had to have gotten paid. He had to have gotten paid. You don't just decide that you're gonna do that, you don't if if that would mean that he obviously had to know Washington. Yeah. So what's their connection? What's their relationship? Where's the paper trail? There's definitely money for him doing this, like over the last 20 years. And uh now he gets caught and he doesn't that's the thing, is like he has to know who did it. So like either uh he knows who did it, and it you're maybe you're right, it was him, and he's trying to say that you know he didn't do that part, he just opened the door so that he has a chance for a plea deal in a few years to maybe like get off on good behavior or get it brought down some, or he knows exactly who did it, and he's maybe just terrified of what that person can still do. Either way, both of those point towards it's not Carl, but I'm still very convinced that it's Carl.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:42

I don't know. I I just I don't know, and that's the craziest part that we're talking about something from 2002, and the latest updates happened months ago, like we're April, right? We're at the very beginning of August, so we're talking within the last five months. This is this is less than that, four months, yeah, dude. The last four months, this is this is changing, and and and changing from the two primary suspects to three suspects to technically fourth. Well, no, technically back down to two. Oh, yeah, we only have two that are actually you know in line as as real suspects if if Carl Jr.'s getting off. Like right. I'm so confused.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

Also, Carl's um out and about, so like everybody in New York or wherever, like, if you're anywhere close to that man, maybe just keep an eye out, I guess, is the best you know, advice that I can give. I've never had a case where the person who I was convinced committed a murder was let out of prison. So I don't know, that's weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

I feel like there's just something we don't have because I get it, yes, and and this is the justice system, you know, really you know, working like you innocent until proven guilty, like, and that's the way it should be, whether whether right or wrong. That is the way it should be. Like, it shouldn't be well, we're pretty sure, so yeah, he's guilty. It's you've got to 100% prove to a jury that you are with like a resounding guilty or resounding, like you know what I mean. So you know, for better or worse, this is the justice system working, right? But like I wonder if there's just stuff they're not letting out yet because this is now an active ongoing case at this point. So I wonder if there is more evidence, particularly from Jay, that did kind of help steer the case for Carl in the direction of you do not have enough to overrule what we know right behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

Like and that that could be yeah, that could be.

Part Two Promise And Listener Tips

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

Everybody that was this was a longer one, but a lot of twists and turns.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Yeah, I mean, just like you were saying, this could be a movie, like that type of thing. Like, this is all it's all laid out there, I feel like. Wait for somebody to make maybe maybe when it's finally, you know, not maybe it's finally done. Maybe Hollywood's waiting to make it make something on this or something like that. Maybe it would make for a good movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

Hey, maybe maybe we write the movie. You never know. But that is our episode, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. And and I'm sure the comments are gonna be filled on this one. So we'll get to give give your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

That's the other thing. Yeah, I mean, if if you know more information about this, if if you're you know following the case a little bit more, absolutely put put some more information in the in the comment. We're definitely gonna have to do like a part two, you know, when when more comes out from from this, as it is still ongoing, type of thing. But if you know something that we missed out on, or something that you know just gives a different account for crucial details or or anything like that, like absolutely interested in in hearing that or reading that, or if there's more articles, something that you know kind of gives a little bit different side to this for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Danny Updates And New Show Ideas

SPEAKER_00 1:14:51

But until then, Danny, tell the people about yourself. I'm just tired. Yeah, no longer, no longer just happy to be here. I'm just tired. That should be there, should be a band called I'm just tired, and you guys should always tour together. Or is it you open and they close?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

I'm starting to think of it now of getting a shirt that says, you know, just happy to be here on the front, and then I'm just so tired on the back, or something like that. That's great. Yeah, we'll figure it out. It'll be a cool t-shirt. The other thing is if you if you have some cool ideas for t-shirt designs, put them in the comments too. Oh yeah, if we if we see one that's really cool and we want to use it, absolutely you get all the credit, stuff like that. But yeah, just happy to be here, super, super active. We're having a lot of fun. We did a weekender in in Virginia and back. That was awesome. First time I get to see you in person. That was that was great being able to hang out, gonna do it again. Can't wait to do that again. And and more like closer to your hometown, I think would be a lot, a lot more fun, and we can kind of hang out a little bit more. And we're going to Pittsburgh and back early September. Fantastic. Got some local shows for for August. And then, yeah, October, we're trying to do another weekender, and maybe even November. Like, we're trying to turn it into more of a thing. Like, we're having a lot of fun with it. We're we're talking t-shirt designs and more merch designs because we were we were we're running a little low, but this last weekender, it kind of showed us that, like, hey, we need to have a better supply on the road. So I think over the next month, like that's gonna be a big concern and and stuff like that. And yeah, I mean, everything we can do. And then we've been talking about this. So, two, two more like podcasts to be looking out for. Obviously, this one, the dark side of music, we're gonna continue to do this regularly as much as we possibly can because this is fun talking talking about like especially when it's like a head scratcher and there's no right answer for type of thing. But we're gonna do some some some that recap episodes because I found out that you have not seen any of the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. I have not. And I cannot let that stand for a long time. So we're gonna do a a retro recap series of the of the first three Tom Holland Spider-Mans. And that's retro recap is basically the same thing as that recap show, but it's where you know it's a movie that's already been out. So there won't be a spoiler alert or anything like that because you know you've seen them except except for heart. Except for me. But and then and then after that, absolutely the new Spider-Man. We're we'll go over that. That'll be a that recap show because we don't want to spoil that for anybody if you haven't had a chance to see that. So a lot of a lot of plans in the works, and then we have been, you and I have been throwing, we throw around a lot of ideas for stuff. We yeah, but a podcast where we do just get to ask questions, yeah. And and I I I am very excited for this because there's so many times where both of us just have questions and we're we're going through stuff. So we're we're we're forming that one right now behind the scenes, and that'll also be be a part of of whatever podcast network that we can put together type of thing, but yeah, really excited to for for everything that's that's in the future. And I mean, Hook and Bridge has got a million episodes and going super strong now. Every every time I open Instagram, I I see a new clip from Hook and Bridge. Yeah, ain't that the truth? In a good I mean that in a good way. Yeah, yeah. I I love seeing new clips. I always give it a like, and if if it's something like funny that I can comment, I'll always always comment.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

And on top of that, this is the first time I'm ever seeing this, but I'm gonna say it on this upcoming week of the Hook and Bridge as well. I talked it over with everybody, and we have a new show that Taylor and I are going to host called Music Court. And this is gonna be a good, good concept. I think you're gonna like this, Danny. What it is is people will submit their opinion. So, for example, somebody might say Nickelback is the worst band ever. And I am talking with a law school about getting law students to participate, and one of it's gonna be mock trial basically. One of them is going to defend the statement, one of them is gonna prosecute the statement, I am going to be the judge, Taylor is going to be the bailiff, and we are going to decide at the end if the statement wins or not, or you know, who who on the the panel wins, but it's going to be actual practicing lawyers from a law school who will someday serve you in your life, and you can look back at that video and be like, hey, that guy got me out of a traffic ticket once.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:36

So I love that idea. I I think that's awesome. I'm I'm very excited for that. I am just as excited for that as the questions podcast that we're gonna do today.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:46

Dude, I'm so excited. We've got so much stuff going on, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:49

I'm excited about everything. We just got to get started on everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

Yeah, no time, Batman. There's just no time. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you on the next one.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

Baby Banny.