How Lou Perlman Built Pop Stardom Then Built A Scam

Welcome And Unexpected YouTube Growth

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Dark Side of Music. Danny, this show has become massive on YouTube. Really? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, we we have a so right now, as far as the hook and bridge network is concerned, this show is 40% of our audience.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Well, thank you to the 40%. Now, now let's talk about the other 60%. What can we do about that? No, I appreciate it. I'm glad everybody's look, we're just sit, we we didn't even hit record. We were just we were just riffing on on this like this story that we're gonna end up talking about for like 20 minutes before we even started hitting record. You were like, you're like, we should probably stop and and hit record. So we're just doing this anyway. So I really appreciate anybody who's actually watching and or listening to this and enjoying it. Absolutely. That's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

So yeah. The the turning point was the the Dimebag Daryl case that we talked about. That was the one that everybody resonated with and and helped us find our audience. So hello everybody, thank you for joining

Why This Story Feels Darkest

SPEAKER_00 1:23

us. Um yeah, today we're gonna be talking about, I would say, I guess it depends on what you define as dark, but I would say this is the darkest case that we've covered so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

There's there's the darkest elements, but on the certain so, like the problem is there's so many levels to this case, and as soon as we spill it, like right now we're just teasing, it's fun, but as soon as we spill it, you'll know most people are gonna know parts of it, but it is legitimately like like an onion, it has layers, yes, and there's so many layers, and some of the layers aren't the darkest, and some of the layers are sheer, absolutely the darkest, horrible stuff, but like they're not all like every layer isn't because I remember I've I've heard like gloss over parts of this in the past, and and TikTok stories about you know elements of this and and stuff that I'll interject that I'll I'll bring more humor.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. We're gonna we're gonna need some of that because this one is a tightrope if I've ever seen one. Today we are talking about the infamous Lou Perlman. In case you don't know, Lou Perlman is the person that brought you the Backstreet Boys and InSync, and others, right? And others, and others, but like O Town and uh pretty much if it was a boy band in the late 90s, it was Lou Perlman. That man knew what he was doing, unfortunately.

Alternate Histories For Pop Stardom

SPEAKER_00 3:02

But like without him, there is no InSync, there is no Backstreet Boys, which is gonna make this whole thing so strange in itself.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

It's weird because it's like, but at the same time, like, do you think we still would have like do you think you know Justin Timberlake still would have become an like a musical act? Yeah, just wouldn't have been propelled to fame in a group and then become a solo act? Like, you just never know because I feel like you know, as much as you want to say, like these were manufactured groups, because they were, they were put together, they were they were trained, they had songs written for them, like what whatever you want to say, put into this. There's still talent there, absolutely. These people still have talent, and and I can understand and I can recognize that like you know, people have talent. Like I don't have the talent to do what they did, like the choreography and the singing and all that kind of stuff together, like that they had to do, and even though they were trained to do it, it I don't think it takes away from having that raw talent, it was just kind of molded raw talent, right? So I really wonder in an alternate universe if Justin Timberlake had like not this hadn't happened, and and Justin Timberlake didn't get famous from this, had he still been able to have some sort of road to success.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

I I think so. I I think all of these guys would have had successful music careers as solo artists. I think that the again it depends on how we define success, but I think the notoriety that they have today would not be anywhere near what it is. But I do think that I agree, they're all talented individuals, and they individually would have had their own successful careers. It the fact that they were all put together, it's it's such I it's a Marvel universe situation.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I know that's my problem. So, like, I'm gonna have some weird takes because like I've been watching Marvel stuff, I've been watching I got I gotta get ready to watch lanterns and stuff like that, too. And I mean, we're gonna be talking about more Spider-Man stuff. Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm deep in civ cinematic universes right now. So I'm gonna do my best to actually talk about real life stuff. I just thought it would be interesting to start with that. It is, it is interesting, yeah. I also wonder if any of them would have gotten more into instead of doing you know just pop music, I wonder if any of them would have gone more the root of a band, like being absolutely a singer in a band, or like a guitarist in a band, or or like you know, something like that, something different.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

I I think that's interesting too, and I think that it's interesting to think of like during that time, pop music was not the genre of choice, right? Alternative rock, grunge was the genre of choice. Lou Perlman basically solidified pop as the main genre for the 2000s. So could they have gone the rock route? Could they have been like a lifehouse, you know? Yeah, right, like it's a really interesting take. And I also I would love to talk to these guys someday about that in itself. Like, what were they into right before Backstreet Boys and InSync? What were their aspirations, you know, their influences?

The Lou Perlman Scam Overview

SPEAKER_00 6:34

So, anyways, here's a brief overview of the case. During the 1990s, Lou Pearlman helped create two of the biggest groups in music history, the Backstreet Boys and InSync. For a time, Pearlman appeared to have discovered the formula for manufacturing superstars. He recruited young performers, assembled groups, hired producers and choreographers, and transformed unknown teenagers and young adults into international celebrities. But behind the boy band empire was another operation. For decades, Pearlman convinced people to invest money in businesses that either weren't nearly as successful as he claimed, or in some cases, were largely fictitious. Investors were shown financial statements, they were promised attractive returns, banks lent him millions of dollars. Pearlman presented himself as an enormously successful businessman. Much of it was built on deception. When the operation finally collapsed, authorities discovered one of the largest Ponzi schemes in American history, and the musicians who made Pearlman famous had already discovered something else. Even while selling millions of records, some of them were barely getting paid. So, yeah, that's a brief overview of what we're gonna be talking about today. Yeah, this man was a con artist, right? The biggest con artist in American history, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

And I'll I'll say exactly what I was talking about that we were talking about before we even started recording was like what I don't understand is, and we're gonna go more into this and and stuff like that. I know we just did it kind of brief. He had a like it's not he he he like to all like it's not like he it appeared he discovered a formula, he discovered the formula for creating superstars. He did it, he legitimately created InSync and the Backstreet Boys, and and other groups. I mean, like he was definitely connected with O Town. I don't know if he was the main guy with like operating, like managing for O Town or anything like that, but he he knew it that it didn't appear, he did it like and so this is what we were talking about before we started recording. I was like, this is crazy that like he legitimately had a talent for putting this together. Like, just stick with that. Like, I don't understand how you go from, you know what, I'm pretty good at this, I think I should keep doing this, and then you do it twice, bona fide success, twice, and then you go, you know what? You know what I should do to follow that up? I'm gonna take a whole bunch of money and do the biggest Ponzi scheme ever by just lying about stuff. Like, I just don't get you have a natural talent and you've been you've proven it twice. You could go to anybody and be like, Look, I could keep doing this, like I can a hundred percent, I could just create this, start it up, and give it to other people. Like, and they just have to pay me residuals and forever, like you just have money forever, and you could do that 50 times, and then you're done. Like, and it's all legal, like what you what he was putting together, what he was doing, and and I was even saying, even if like, you know, as you know, the the the boy band era kind of slowly, you know, ended, you go to, you know, there were so major pop superstars, like Arena Grande and Taylor Swiss. I know, you know, I'm not saying they were manufactured or anything, I'm just saying he could have also just kind of gone the same route and had like, oh, I'm gonna start, you know, doing solo pop artists now. And I I know you know the training that goes into it. I know I I have people that write good music, like obviously. I just don't it it just it blows my mind. You have a legitimate knack for for putting this together and for easily you know doing this and proven track record. Why, why? Why, why, why do you need more, sir?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

So, so in science, right, we have scientists that are dedicated to discovery, and part of that discovery is you in order to move away from coincidence, you need repeated results. Danny, do you know how many times you need to repeat results before it goes after coincidence? Two, three, three anytime something happens in science more than three times and you can replicate it, it is no longer a coincidence. Now, this is the roster of Lou Roman, the Backstreet Boys, InSync, O Town, LFO, Take Five, Natural, Innocence, which was where Britney Spears started. I have never heard of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

I I the last couple you lost me with I I I know I heard of Take Five, but I I couldn't tell you what who they are. I to be completely honest, you probably lost me after O Town. But I know I've heard LF, what was it, LFO? I know I've heard of them.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Oh, yeah, Summer Girls, dude.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Okay, okay, yeah. I was pretty sure that's who they were. I just couldn't remember. But like right after that, who was next? Take Take Five LFO, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Take five. Isn't Take Five a candy bar? Like it is a candy bar, it is a candy bar. That's the only Take Five I know. But Innocence is the where Britney Spears started. So that means that he also discovered Britney Spears, damn, US Five, Solid Harmony IE, and Marshall Dylan, a country boy band. So, anyways, every genre, like one, two, three, four, at least five artists, five times artists that I have heard of.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

I I mean, look, I I I get it that like I guess greed like really changes changes your brain, but like just looking at it from an outside perspective, I'm like, you have something that you're very good at. Like, yeah, just do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Like, he could have left everything, became just a consultant, he could have left the 90s, said, I am no longer in this industry, I am just a consultant for firms that are working with musicians, and just lived off of that. People, when you're talking about that roster, yeah, people would have paid him millions of dollars for an hour of his time. But I guess once a criminal, always a

Aviation Front And Early Deception

SPEAKER_00 13:17

criminal. Let's dive into who Lou Pearlman really was. So, Lou Pearlman, his full name was Louis J. Pearlman. He was born June 19th, 1954, in Queens, New York. He died August 19th, 2016. He was a music manager, entrepreneur, record producer, and aviation businessman. That last one is gonna come up here in a second and blew me blew me away. It was the one part of this entire story that I had no idea existed. Pearlman grew up in Queens. Hey, close to you there, Danny.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I a little bit actually, we're playing in Queens next week.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Hey, there you go. Interestingly, he was a cousin of Art Garfunkel. Pearlman became interested in business aviation, became one of his early obsessions. Long before Backstreet Boys and InSync existed. Pearlman wanted to build an aviation empire, which talk about every millionaire ever. Yeah, like that's the route to success when you when you start talking about real money. Get into airplanes, man. Anything that involves the sky. Pearlman established several aviation-related companies. Among the most important was the Transcontinental Airline. The company was presented as a successful charter aviation business. Pearlman used the appearance of success in aviation to attract investors. He portrayed himself as a wealthy entrepreneur operating and growing collection of companies, and that reputation would later become critical to his investment operation. So basically, this guy had some aspirations and he said to himself, How can I make just a boatload of money?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

I'm gonna get into airplanes, but like he faked a company.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, but like what year is this? Because I feel like, yes, there's still people that think this way, but like you can't just be like, hey, give me a really cool idea. Let's start an airline company. Like, I don't think like that's happening now, and I don't I don't even think that's happening like the 90s. Like, is this like 70s, 80s, like type of thing?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

So this happened in the late 70s.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Okay, so 70s, 80s. So, yeah, so we're talking not internet, so like, yes, you could, I guess, technically do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Also, also again, this happens to me a lot where I think about like the timeline, and you would think that aviation happened so long ago, right? But I think when did the Wright brothers was that 1920?

SPEAKER_01 16:27

No, it was way before that.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

18 1903. So, in the grand scheme of things, that's when they discovered aviation. That's not when uh commercial airplanes existed, that's when they learned that we could go in the sky.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

You know what's even crazier? Uh less than what was it? Uh when when did we when did we go to space? Uh so from uh 69. Yeah, so like 60-ish years after they discovered aviation, we were in space.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, right. That's that isn't that nuts. That's so that's crazy. That is crazy. I just looked it up. So January 1st, 1914 was the first commercial airline. 1914. This was the late 70s. So what is that like 50 something years? Yeah, like that's wild to me that like I mean somebody existed that saw the airplanes happen and Lou Pearlman's scheme. That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

And they saw somebody go to space, like you know what I mean. Like they saw so much in that so much, dude.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

It's it that's one person's lifetime. Yeah, that's crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

So I guess okay, putting that into perspective, he was born in like the let's say the mid-50s.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, 50, yeah, 55, 54.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Mid-50s, so that's you know, give or take, what that's what did you say?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

1914 is the first commercial, 1903 was the uh discovery of flight.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

1914. So, like, yeah, so like I guess, you know, in this in the 70s, it's still like an a new thing where yeah, maybe there are still new companies popping up. Maybe it's not just like, hey, if it's not Southwest Delta, you know, United, I don't trust it. Like, it's not gonna be like that kind of thing, I guess. I mean, I'll I take Alaska Airlines most of the time, but wouldn't it have been crazy?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I mean, he basically invented Spirit Airlines. That's basically his idea, was basically Spirit Airlines. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Well, Spirit Airlines, if you didn't have a plane or any staff, or any building, or any money. Yeah. So kinda.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

So basically a spirit airlines.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

He passed the expenses to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

That's yeah, that's wild to me, man. That's that's so crazy of a concept that he he wanted to get into what everybody was doing at the time. And and the fact that it was such a short period of time between the discovery of flight and also 14 so 11, 11 years after the discovery of us being able to get in the air, as America, we were just like, hey, let's let everybody go in there. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

That's not enough time. That I that's why I kind of have I give it some gimme years because like it's like how many people are really going on it, yeah, right, in in 1914. Like, like that would be like the equivalent to right now, if you thought about it this way. The equivalent to right now would be if tomorrow somebody opened, you know, a a launch pad and was like, hey, you know, we're gonna do commercial flights to the moon and back, like just yeah, whenever. Like a lot of people would do it. Number one, it would be super expensive. So, like the first the first, you know, 10 years are probably gonna be out of reach for the the you know normal us, like the first flat screens, yeah. So, like, you gotta give it 10 years for that, and then after that, like maybe it starts the price starts lowering, like as more companies start opening, they're like, Hey, this is good business. And so, like, you're at like 19, you're in the mid-1920s at that point when when it's really like people are like, Okay, maybe we can fly a little bit, type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Also, that concept is so scary to me because I just realized that's exactly how it would happen. Tomorrow, yeah, they would say, Hey, everyone, we can now just go to the moon, and then Visio would come along and they're like, Hey, you know how you guys want to go to the moon, but you can't afford it. Well, we built a much cheaper version of that rocket. And from my experience, those TVs suck. So, but that is crazy that we just were letting people go in the sky 11 years after we found out we could get in the sky, they were just like, You guys want to go? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

But that's what I'm saying. So, like, if you do like, you know, think about it. You I mean, maybe now the the experience slash price would would go down drastically fast. So, like five years now. Like if it literally started tomorrow, I'd I there would be at least a five year before the price even became realistic for a normal person. Yeah, yeah. Because it's it would it would probably be 250k. Minimum plus whatever. Like, you know what I mean? It would be something crazy for the first five years. But I'm thinking back then, at least 10. Like, so like the average person, so you're in the 1920s before even like a business person is probably going to use it. And then you're kind of in some some sticky periods in in in history, anyway. So we're probably not because we're in the depression and we're we're probably not spending money on stuff we don't need. So then we're in the 1930s slash 40s before it's probably really an actual normal possibility. So like, and that's a decade before this guy's born. Like at that point, like now we're at a decade before he's born. And so he basically probably grows up in the transition of life where where it went from you know a luxury to you know, business people are actually flying, type of thing. Like, you know what I mean? So he probably that's probably why he was actually so interested in it, because he grew up during it, type of thing. Yeah, so it kind of makes sense now. Now that we actually broke all of that down, it it makes more sense other than him just like looking through hey, what's popular and expensive? Like you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

All of that being said, that was a complete pin uh Ponzi scheme that he was he was doing, and now we dive into his idea that realistically wasn't a bad idea. He had good ideas, he just had nothing to back them up. Yeah, Pearlman transitions into music. Reportedly, he came after, or it came after observing the enormous success of New Kids on the Block. Uh Pearlman

From New Kids To Boy Bands

SPEAKER_00 24:11

became fascinated by how profitable and successful a boy band could become. The concept was relatively straightforward. Find several attractive young performers, creepy, um, give each member a distinct personality, train them extensively, hire professional songwriters and producers, build a recognizable image, market heavily towards teenagers, and Pearman decided that he could create his own version. And that is where we dive into what you would know as the Backstreet Boys. In 1993, Pearlman assembled the Backstreet Boys. The original lineup lineup became AJ McLean, Howie

Backstreet Boys Built And Underpaid

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Doreau, Nick Carter, Kevin Richardson, and Brian Lattrell. The group rehearsed extensively. Pearlman financed vocal coaching, choreography, rehearsal space, promotional appearances, and travel, initially breaking the group or bringing the breaking the group in America proved difficult. Initially breaking the group in America proved difficult. Uh so let's let's stop here for a second because even even knowing what we know about him moving forward, which we're gonna get into here in a second, on paper, the upfront financing of all of that as a musician yourself, that's a lot. That's somebody doing that for you as an artist, that's a ton of support up front.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Oh, yeah. I mean, I I'm just thinking of like I unfortunately do not have a vocal coach. I would I would love to have I do not have that money to spend, though. So I just look up on YouTube for vocal exercises. But if there are any aspiring vocal coaches out there that would like to take on a client just just to to help, no, um choreography is another thing. I don't have that, but I I could I could guarantee that they're you know being seen by somebody who's you know well renowned and and probably knows really well, so they're probably expensive. Rehearsal space, I I am aware of that. I know how that adds up really quick, but you know, luckily I I I split that with five other people, yeah, and promotional stuff and and travel. Like we're starting to travel more, so I can understand you know, stuff like that. And we're not even on the same level, like we're not going international like these guys, and well, and and even a promotional think of the time period.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

This isn't social media, this is this is cable network TV, this is your daily news and and newspaper and flyers. This is CDs just came out, you know. So yeah, that's that's a lot of upfront cost to an artist. Given what we know, it sucks to have to defend that, but like he really did invest so much into this group that uh on paper he didn't know was going to be as successful as they ended up being. Yeah, but it gets darker, unfortunately. Europe was different, so it was initially hard for them to get in America, but Europe was different. The Backstreet Boys became enormously successful overseas before exploding in the United States. Eventually, they became one of the best-selling musical groups in history. Pearlman's experiment had worked. His role in all of this to the members of the Backstreet Boys, Pearlman wasn't simply their manager, he represented himself almost like another member of their family. They called him Big Papa, yeah, which is very creepy.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Very creepy. The fact that we know other stuff makes it even worse.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, Pearlman financed their development, he traveled with them, he provided opportunities they otherwise might never have received. But eventually the members began asking me a simple question. Where was the money?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I ask myself that question every day. Dude, same. I'm like, I'm like, I know I have money. Come in, and then I I go through it. I go, no, I spent all of that. No, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Okay, yeah. Every month I'm like, where is the money, Lou Prolman? I'm just gonna start blaming all of my bills on Lou Pearlman from that.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Clearly, it's all his fault. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

The Backstreet Boys were becoming an ash international celebrities, they were selling enormous numbers of records, they were touring, they were appearing on television, their faces were literally everywhere. We're all 90s kids, we remember these days. According to accounts from the members of the group, their personal earnings didn't seem remotely consistent with their success. One of the famous moments came when ProMan presented the members with their first major check. After months of working and enormous commercial success, each member reportedly received approximately twelve thousand dollars. This realization was devastating. They were famous, their manager appeared wealthy, everyone surrounding the operation seemed to be making money, yet the performers themselves weren't seeing much of it. I just want to quickly run the the inflation rate on the street.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I was just about to ask you that. Yeah, like I understand, like the the the the veil is lifted.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

We know he's screwing them over, like spoiler alert, we know he's screwing them over, but like oh wow, yeah, that is like when you put it into perspective of today's money, that is exceptionally low, $27,000.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

But here's the thing just because I am not a massive hit artist or anything, if all of a sudden somebody gave me a check and said, Hey, I know you've been you know playing shows for the last you know three or four months, and you've been really like digging in and and and really you know toughen it out, and they handed me a check for $27,000. I understand, like I said, the bail is lifted. He's not he's not fooling me. I get it. We know spoiler alert, he's he's you know, he's he's taking way more profits from them. But like if somebody's if somebody handed me a check for $27,000 and said, hey, here's $27,000, I would be like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

For for like five days, that's how I would feel. But come day seven, I'm gonna be like, yo, hold on a second.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

No, as soon as I turn on the TV and I'm like, and I'm on like Netflix, and I have Netflix with ads because I'm not rich enough to not have Netflix with ads, and and one of the ads came up for like our new album or a music video or something like that came up, I'd be like, wait a minute, 27k, and we got we got money for Netflix ads. I then would be like, okay, something might be up here.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

But well, and it's like they they literally were everywhere. I remember being a kid, I remember the Backstreet Boys Burger King campaign. I remember getting that that VHS tape. I do know that in the CD. Oh, yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Here's the thing. I don't like I know the Backstreet Boys, and I know and Sync, and I know like they're bigger songs, but I just wasn't like that. Wasn't a uh a music that I was listening to. Like that just wasn't me either. I just but I didn't I don't have any brothers and sisters, so like even my like I have I have girl cousins, and all of my girl cousins also were into like rock and and like ska and like you that kind of stuff. So like I was listening to I got like from them, I got like no doubt, and I got like you know what I mean, like 311 and like that kind of 90s, so like I was in that side of things, even like I said, even from like my cousins and I were very close family, so like we were kind of raised almost like siblings, like I see them so often. They, you know, I was always there for holidays, or they were overseer for a holiday, yeah, stuff like that. So if any of them had been super big on on Backstreet Boys or Insync, I I feel like I would have gotten a little bit more of that experience, but I just I feel like I was kind of in almost like isolation from that. Like I know of it. Like it's not like I'm I'm not pretending like, oh, I didn't I didn't listen to the band. Of course, if they're everywhere, I'm gonna hear their music and stuff like that. But I just wasn't I wasn't in it that deep where like I don't remember certain campaigns and and and any of this, like any of like the the really off things other than like their major hits and and like stuff like that. It's right, it's weird how like it it was a major thing, but like you can miss it if you're just not like you don't have somebody that's like deep within it. It's crazy. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Well, similarly to Lou Pearlman, my father was also looking for his get rich quick scheme, and surprisingly tried to profit off of Lou Pearlman's work because he was when that happened

Collectibles Tangent And Lost Pokemon Cards

SPEAKER_00 34:20

at Burger King, dude, we would go every week. I had like stacks of these movies because he was like, Someday these are gonna be worth a ton of money. He's the reason I got into Pokemon ultimately because, like the cards, he was like, We're gonna put these in a sleeve. This is gonna be your future someday. And where are those Pokemon sleeves? He was right.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Where are those Pokemon sleeves?

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Gone, so gone, but like ultimately, I have to give it to him. He was right about both of those things. Those DVDs or those uh CDs and VHS tapes are worth a ton of money now, and he was right on the Pokemon. The Pokemon, far more correct than I could ever dream.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

You know what upsets me every day, and whenever anybody talks about Pokemon, I to this day do not know where it is. It's like I have a blank spot in my mind. I had a binder with about four first citizen Charizards, you know, a couple of Blastoise, a couple of first citizen Venusaurs, like I had holographic Chanseys, and I had, you know, Mewtwo and the ancient Mew one. Like I had all of these, and I have no idea where they are, no idea if I gave them away or if I just you know left them somewhere when we were moving. Like, I have no idea, but somebody, unless they ended up like getting destroyed or thrown away, I don't think I threw them away. I feel like I would have remembered that, but somebody somewhere got just like the biggest gift of Pokemon cards from me, just from a binder of like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

That's not that's like that's like forgetting that you lost gold somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Well, it's like it's like the guy who forgot who had the the the uh the the hard drive, yeah, with the big coin and just accidentally threw it away. Yeah, I'm telling you, I know I didn't throw them away. Like that's that's so anytime I think about this, it actually infuriates me. I know I didn't throw them away, and my dad, that's not something my dad would throw away either, because yeah, he's the type he's the type of parent where he respects my property. Like, so like he wouldn't have been like, Oh, these are stupid cards. Like he wouldn't, he wouldn't do that. He would ask me, he would have consciously said, Hey, do you want me to save this binder of old sports cards? Or because I I collected baseball cards, I collected you know, Pokemon cards. I that was our tradition. When I when it was me and him, every Friday we got pizza, and there's a pizza store, and then right next door there was a used bookstore that sold cards, they sold baseball cards, Pokemon cards, they sold everything, like uh anything you could think of. They had those the cards. It was awesome. It was like basically a comic book shop without having comics because it was just a used bookstore with cards. And I made friends with the the store owner's son. Like me and him were about the same age, and so he would just get packs for like helping out at the store and stuff, and so you would open stuff and he'd have like tons of doubles. That's how I got half the the hologram, the holographic cards I had because he would just be like, Yeah, I have six chances here, have one. And I'm like, Really? And he goes, Yeah, have it.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

He probably gave me he probably gave me Charizards, yeah, dude. Also, I bet he's living up right now. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I he may have just been just like me, though. His parents probably would have just to be fair, his probably his parents probably were just like, get rid of the junk. Like they were probably that they were probably the type where they would be like, just we don't we have so much stuff around, let's just get rid of it. Hopefully they weren't though, and hopefully they made him save them or resell them. But yeah, what's the most infuriating part, like I said, and I know I'm way long tangent, is I know I didn't throw them away. I just it's like it's like I have scene after scene after scene of them, and then it's like when I try to recall where the last scene was, it's just like blank spot, and then it's just like it's like rest of life post-having them. Like, so it's like I don't know where they are, and I legitimately have no it's like somebody went back in time and took them, so like there's no existing after the point they took them, they just ceased to exist in this universe. But I I know the binder because it's a white binder and it had the outside where you could put like something in it, and I drew stuff, like I drew Pokemon stuff on it, yeah. So I knew it was my Pokemon card binder, and it was white on the front and the back, and then you would slide something in. And I know I drew Pokemon and put it, yeah. I can see it. It exists. Somebody has my binder. I just want you to take a picture and let me know that it still exists. I don't even, I don't even like I won't sue you to get it back, I won't do anything. I just want to know it still exists, and I'm not crazy.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Uh I hope how crazy would that be, dude. Dude, that would be insane. That would be insane. I I did the same thing though. Like, I was how old was I? I was I had just moved to Virginia and I didn't have a job, so I found my old stuff. It was right before the blowup, and I was like, you know what? I have these cards, I know they're worth a little bit of money. I got rent due, so let me just offload them. Got on offer up, yep, and I was like, 400 bucks, somebody take them, whole binder. And same thing. I didn't have multiples, but I did have a first edition Charizard, Blast Horse, and and Venusaur. I had the Mewtwo, the Pikachu, the Ancient Mew. I had all of your standard, like these are the known ones, but I had one copy of everything in that binder. I sold the whole binder $400. And two years later, Logan Paul made that Charizard go from like a $200 card to $15,000. So I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Now, on the flip side, I did get rid of a you know, a medium-sized box. It wasn't a large, it wasn't a small box, a medium-sized box of Funko Pops for almost a grand. Yeah. Before it kind of like fell off. Like now, there's some that are still worth like a good amount of money, but those are like the super ultra rare ones that are really not moving around too much. But like I'm talking about like when it was like really crazy, like Funko was releasing them like every Friday, and and they would sell out in like a minute or something like that. And you got those. I was trading people. I remember, and this is like recent, I'm talking within the last like six years, pre-pandemic. So, like two years before the pandemic. So, like, I guess, I guess at this point, eight years. I was actually going to the mall and trading people because there would be like forums and stuff, and I'd be like, Hey, I'm in northern Jersey, like I have this one, you have that one, you want to just trade? And they were like around the same value, but like, sure. I was trading around. So, like, there was a wholesaler that was buying it, and one of my roommates was was making a deal, and I said, Hey, do you mind if I get in on that? And he goes, Well, I mean, you'll have to give him a list of what you have and what you can offer and see if he's interested. And I said, Okay. And so I made a list and I gave it to him, and he told the guy, and he was like, I'll give him 850. And I was like, I could have sold them. I could have sold, I looked at it and I was like, I could have sold these for probably 1100 to 1400 if I really like sold them all individually and got what I thought they were all really worth. But like somebody saying, I'll give no, I think that I think I actually even talked him up to 900 to be completely fair. I think his first offer was like 850. And I was like, Come on, man. And he was like, Well, you don't really have that many. I was like, dude, I have this one, this one, and this one. He goes, Oh, I didn't know you had those. And it was like 900. And I was like, okay, like, and I was just done. I just gave it to him, and he just gave me it. And I was like, This is like almost double my rent. Because at that point, I was living, I had six roommates. I had a very tiny room. I had a room this big. The room that I am in currently was my entire bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

So that's crazy. Do you know what the most expensive one is? I just looked it up. Pokemon card? Uh, no, no, pop funko Funko Pop.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Uh is it a gold Willy Wonka two-pack?

SPEAKER_00 42:50

It is. Oh, I really yeah. $210,000. Yeah. Only 10 sets were ever made and distributed.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

See, that's the thing about now. So, like that bubble burst, it burst very quickly. I think I honestly think it really burst because of the pandemic because people couldn't really go and and get like a lot of the super super exclusives anymore. But yeah, the ones that are really worth stuff now are stuff that was created eight to ten years ago at this point. Like, and it's it's just stuff that people really, really wish they had.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Never gonna get again. Like the ones that come out that come out now, unless there's unless they're doing it on purpose to make it super exclusive, like like 10, like making 10 of them or something, but it would have to still be something like so iconic that everybody wants it for some reason. Like, if they made a pink gold plated Dolly Parton, you know, Dollywood exclusive, and only made like a hundred of them, those would go crazy high. Like, but but you know what I mean? Like, that's that's the kind of thing that they would have to do to really make a Funko Pop that that would that hasn't come out yet be like ultra rare and expensive.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

And and Dolly and your estate, we love you. So sorry that you are gone. However, that being said, I'm gonna go ahead and say that that that idea is copyrighted by Danny right now.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Well, look, I am perfectly here here's the thing 100% you could have that idea. I just would would love to have some sort of you know connection with with Dolly Parton. I think she was such an amazing musician in person in general, that like I would just and I would ask to to you know, because they're really big on you know, proceeds like really going to charity for things. So I would just want to be part of the conversation of where absolutely where those proceeds could go to. Like, yeah, other than that, just to be part of that, I would be completely like that would be enough, like that type of thing. Anybody anybody other than Dolly Parton, we're we're we we're talking, but like Dolly Parton's estate, Dolly Parton, like any any of her family like that's connected with that, if that's an idea they ever wanted to use, 100. Totally can. I just want to be part of it. Like that's that's all.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

I just want one. Just just keep one for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

That would be nice too. Yes. We we by by the fact that we came up with it, we we just at least get a commemorate commemorative one. Maybe we get even a special one. Like this, yeah, yeah. It's like kind of like built into a plaque that we can just hang up. Yeah. Oh, oh. That's all I want. Anyways, I don't even remember. What do we do? That's it for the night. That right, like uh what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

So one of the strangest aspects of Pearlman's contracts involved his own financial position. Pearlman reportedly structured the arrangements so that he effectively received compensation similar to being a sixth member

The Sixth Member Contract Trick

SPEAKER_00 46:03

of the Backstreet Boys. At the time, he was also receiving management-related income. That means that Pearlman potentially could profit multiple sides of the group of the group's success. Eventually, the band challenged him. In 1997, the Backstreet Boys filed a lawsuit against Pearlman. The group alleged that Pearlman and his companies had taken disproportionate amounts of the money generated from their success. This dispute eventually resulted in a settlement. The Backstreet Boys gained greater control over their career. Pearlman's relationship with the group deteriorated, but Pearlman had already begun building another band. So yeah, he had these weird parts of his agreement, parts of his contract, where he basically was paying himself as a member of the band. And I do remember this as part of the overarching story from like the interviews and documentaries that I've seen about this case, where his whole concept, what he would tell them was like, Well, I'm putting in work too. I'm one of you guys. You know what I mean? So like there was this guilt factor, this guilt trip that he tried to put on the band members.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Well, yeah, I mean, he was laying the foundation for that from the from the start, saying that he was part of like they were family and stuff like that. Because it's like, well, you can't argue with family.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

And I know this is such a brief understanding of this, but like there are so many documentaries about Lou Pearlman. I do encourage anybody listening to check out other creators talk about this because like the documentaries are incredible, man, and and it really dives deep. And the conversations that the Backstreet Boys have had on camera about this experience are very, very emotional. And it was a lot of that, like honestly, manipulation. He he took advantage of underage people and manipulated them emotionally into giving him money, which is horrendous. However, moving forward, we're getting into InSync. Perlman helped create another Orlando-based boy band, InSync. The members included Justin Timberlake, JC Chazez, Chet Chaz. Uh I don't know.

NSYNC Learns The Same Lesson

SPEAKER_00 48:21

My wife would know. Chris Kirpatrick, Joey Fatone, and Lance Bass. Once again, the formula worked. In sync became enormously successful. For Pearlman, it's it appeared that he had accomplished something extraordinary. He had helped create two competing groups that would dominate the same market. The Baxter Boys and InSync became two of the defining pop acts of the late 90s and early 2000s. But InSync eventually discovered familiar problems. Despite massive success, members of InSync also became suspicious of their financial arrangements. They discovered that ProMan had structured their business relationship in ways they believed overwhelmingly benefited him. Sounds familiar. In 1999, InSync sued ProMan and his record company. Eventually, the parties reached a settlement. InSync escaped Pro Man's control. Yeah, he pulled the same shit twice. Yeah. He was like, Huh, I made two successful bands. I bet they won't be as smart as the last ones. And tried to sneak it in on them, and they were like, hey man, where's our money? And then he was like, Oh, I've been down this road before. I'm gonna sue you first. So yeah, he was a bad guy. Like, I don't know how else to say he's just a bad guy, you know. He's just he it's it's not even what's crazy is yeah, so we know this gets a lot darker.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

For sure. We know this gets a lot darker, but the the the elements of sleazy is already there. That's the word I'm looking for. Sleazy. He's a sleazy guy. At this point, he is the stereotypical of what you know we think of when we think of sleazy managers and and what they get portrayed in in like you know, TV shows and and and movies and and stuff like that. This is who this guy really is. Like, yes, and we're at that point, it gets way worse, but we're at that point right now where he's the stereotypical sleazy manager that you would see in like Jocelyne the Pussycats, the movie, yeah, yeah, like a like a bad movie, right? Like in a movie like that. Like this is this is when when I was reading this entire case file, all I was thinking of was a live action Jose and the Pussycats movie. Yeah, um, just for like the sleazy stuff that goes on behind the scenes in in in you know music industry and everything like that. One of my favorite movies, though. The elements of sleaze are there. We already had the element of you know wanting to trick people even before the boy band stuff. So like all of the elements are coming together now. Once again, I could give a Marvel reference and I'm not. It's like these Thanos collecting the infinity stones, but you'll get to that soon on your way to do something. But so all of the elements are adding up and and and they're all there, and and it just yeah, it gets so much worse. Like, I I just I even in this, like, even in this, like he still could have finished this, been done with this, and still been like, Look, I was sleazy before, but I know what I'm doing and putting stuff together. So trust me now, I'll put these people together and I will just, you know, get like franchise it out to somebody else, and then my name's not attached. I just get paid, you know, up front and residuals, but like that's it. He still could have done that, and it would have been a legitimate business, and he wouldn't been going to court anymore because he's franchising them out to other people who you hope aren't gonna do the same sleazy aspect of it that he was doing, but still he knows how to put he knows how to do the groundwork for a successful superstar, exactly. So that it just it again just blows my mind at he didn't just legitimately do that and just do 10, 20, however many he wanted to do to make the amount of money that he wanted to make, like he

Why They Split This Into Two

SPEAKER_01 52:38

wasn't enough, and also and and I know I know you have to go, and and I I almost think we should make this into a two-part series.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Oh, you want to do that? I think so. I think so. Okay, I think this is a fantastic place to leave it. But but on one final note, there is a level of luck that goes into this as well, because it's the music industry, yeah. Like, so you you got lucky, you got handed a lottery ticket twice. The first time you not even twice, yeah. And then you were like, Oh man, I got another lottery ticket, and you do the exact same thing with the ticket, like it's it's even it's even it's even crazier than that.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

It's not that he just went to a store and bought a lottery ticket twice and and and hit, it's as if he worked for the lotto, yeah, and somehow manufactured and said, like, I know five out of the six numbers, I just have to get, or or four out of the six numbers, I just have to get the other two correct. Yeah, and he did it twice. Because he knew, like, he he had the instinct and the talent to pick the right people, to train them right, and to work with the right people to create the right music, like you know what I mean. So that is what I'm talking about. When I talk about he had talent in something, he did. He had talent in picking the right people, he had talent in working with the right song like creators and and the right, you know, people that could do choreography. Yeah, yeah, he's a good discovery. It wasn't like he just fell into it. He there is it, I 100% agree with there is an element of luck, but it is as if he already knew four out of the six numbers, right? And just had a bank on getting the other two right, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Four out of the six numbers, and their names were Justin Timberlake, Chris Kirkpatrick, Joey Fatone, and Lance Bass because I can't pronounce the other guy's name. JC Chessez? Chaz Ez. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Chase, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Chesse, you might be right. I'm gonna ask my wife, I'm gonna ask my wife right after this for part two. So again, I think that's a smart move. I say we I say we leave this for a part two. I like because this story is about to get there's so much more, too. So much more.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

If you want, we we could at least uh I mean, it's so hard of knowing where to stop because like this is just where like okay, enter in sync, and it's like you know the same thing's gonna happen. Like, so like we can we can almost skip skip that a little bit, but like my favorite part to talk about, and I guess okay, maybe we can leave it off on this. My favorite part to talk about is how he basically manufactured a feud between in sync and Backstreet Boys.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

So that they would never talk to each other and find out that they were both getting screwed over. Like, yeah, that is my favorite part of the entire of the entire part of this, is that like he just was like, hey man, did you hear so-and-so from the backstreet boys said you're a stupid head? Like, I just I want to believe like that it was something as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

It's it's like it's like you're it's like you're dating somebody, and then you guys break up, and then you start dating like a relative of that person, but you convince them that the other person you were dating said some mean shit so that you guys never talk again, yeah, because you don't want to get that story out of what actually happened, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Uh, it's wild, man. Uh, yeah, it's about to get so crazy, guys. It's this is a great place to leave it because we've been able to keep it so lighthearted because we've only covered the lighthearted stuff, but it's about to get so dark. So thank you everybody for listening. And I hope you enjoyed this episode today. You prepared for a darker part too, and a darker part, dude on the dark side of music coming your way.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

I mean, darker side, I guess, of that.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Dark, the even darker side. Imagine you have a piece of toast, and you're like, you know what? Let's take it one more round in the toaster. That's what you're about to get. All right, everybody. Thank you so much. It's been fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Bye, Middle Egg.